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Met with State Representative today re Non Ethanol Gas

Just came back from a meeting with my State Representative for St. John/St. James Parishes. Went over the details of the proposed bill I have asked him to introduce in the upcoming session of the Louisiana Legislature. We will be asking that all gas stations that have three (3) tanks to convert their mid-grade tank (89 octane) to regular gasoline with NO ETHANOL. Also would require labeling on the pump dispenser that would read "NON ETHANOL".

As soon as the bill is formally introduced and I get a copy of the actual bill and number, I will post an article in the Forum and Andy Crawford of Louisiana Sportsman has indicated to me that he will also write an article on the web site's front page outlining the bill. When this appears, we'll also ask all readers to contact your State Representative (later your Senator also if the bill is approved in the House) and URGE them to support the bill. If you read my paper titled "Is E-15" Gasoline Coming Soon?" in the "BLOG" section of the main ethanol page, it will give you directions on how to learn who your State Representative and Senators, and how to contact them. Here is the text in that Blog:

We will need everyone’s support on this issue when the bills are filed in the Legislature in April. If you are not aware who your state senator and representative are, use this link and follow these instructions:

1. First click on this link (copy and paste in the address bar) to learn who is your State Representative and Senator:

http://www.legis.state.la.us/

2. You will see the first section on the top of the page titled "Your Louisiana Legislators." Click on "Find Out" after the sentence "Who are your State Senators and Representatives."

3. Enter your address, city and zip code as requested, then click the "Search" box. You will be provided with the names of your district's State Senator, State Representative and also your U.S. senators and district representative. Click on their name to bring up their web site.

4. To learn how to contact your state legislators, click on the "Here's How!" after the line that says "How do I contact my State Senators and Representatives.”

5. Another window titled "How do I contact my legislator?" opens. If you click on the “House of Representatives Member Info” (purple lettering near the top of the page) you will be provided an alphabetical listing of each state representative by name, district, office address, phone number and e-mail address. Do the same for the “Senate Member Information” link.

You will notice that under this section is another section that describes how to reach your Senator and Representative while they are in session in Baton Rouge.


Everyone is encouraged to find their State Senator and Representative’s name, office address, phone number and e-mail address from this web site.

I will post on LouisianaSportsman.com when my state senator and representative introduce the bills, along with the respective bill numbers and titles. I will ask that each and every boater, fisherman, fishing guide, etc., bombard their state senators and representatives with phone calls, letters and e-mails to support these bills.

If we can get this enacted into Louisiana law, this may be our only chance of survival, especially if the EPA approves the lobby request to increase the ethanol content of motor fuels to 15%.

Get ready.......we'll need EVERYONE'S help on this!

 
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Entered Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:01:16 am CST
 


58 Comments
Cajun-Pete
Posted Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:22:56 am CDT

Letter from EPA stating what the 2010 Ethanol Requirements Are

Guys, here's the e-mail I received from the EPA Region 6 in Dallas regarding the 2010 EPA requirements for "renewal fuels" is - ethanol is 95% of the "renewal fuels". In 2010, refineries are required to sell 8.25% of their total motor fuels as ethanol fuel!

=============================================

Mr. Landry,
You should be reading the final RFS2 rule, not the proposal. The final rule looks at four kinds of renewables to displace gasoline and diesel: cellulosic biofuel, biomass-based diesel, advanced biofuel, and "renewable fuel". This may be where you got the 8.25% from. I see that the "renewable fuel" standard for 2010 is 8.25%.

Ethanol may be either a cellulosic biofuel, advanced biofuel, or renewable fuel depending on certain criteria. Find the definitions section of the regulation in 80.1401 to see the specific definitions of each of these. You will see that an advanced biofuel could be ethanol as long as that ethanol is not derived from cornstarch, and meets some other requirements. Ethanol can be a cellulosic biofuel if it is made from any cellulose, hemi-cellulose, or lignin, plus some other requirements. And ethanol can be considered a "renewable fuel" if it meets the requirements of that definition, which are focused on end use.

When you read through the definitions, keep in mind that biodiesel is now part of this rule, whereas it was not specifically included in the RFS1 rule. The RFS1 rule focused on ethanol displacement of gasoline. So, the % standards now can also include use of biodiesel. Therefore, there are no longer gallon requirements for any particular type of renewable fuel. Obligated parties can meet those standards using either ethanol or biodiesel or both.

Sandra Rennie
Air Planning Section
EPA Region 6, 6 PD-L
1445 Ross Avenue, Suite 1200
Dallas, TX 75202-2733
E-Mail: rennie.sandra@epa.gov
(214) 665-7367
(214) 665-7263 fax

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Cajun-Pete
Posted Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:15:54 am CDT

Murphy Does Sell Non Ethanol Gas
Marsh, I know for a fact that Murphy DOES SELL ethanol free gasoline because one of my neighbors owns a Conoco station in LaPlace and that's where he get his gas. I saw his invoice. Your source is WRONG. Marathon Oil in Garyville also sells non ethanol also. My friend gets his non ethanol from Marathon at times. He alternates between Murphy and Marathon.

Guys, it's not only the "Waco Government" in Washington that is pushing this garbage on us, it is also THE OIL COMPANIES! They don't have to sell 100% of their gas as ethanol gas as I've said over and over. They "choose" to do so. I wrote a letter to the US President of Shell Oil asking why they are choosing to sell essentially 100% ethanol gas in Louisiana and other southern states. He's basically spouting the Washington lingo. I may post his reply to me later.....Why are they doing this? Again the $$$. In 2010, the EPA memo says they are only required to sell 8.75% of their total gasoline production as ethanol gas.

Maybe we should take our case to the major oil companies?? They don't seem to care about boaters and fishermen it appears. Maybe 50,000 guys towing their boats into Houston and jam the streets around One Shell Square and also the Exxon/Mobile office might get some attention??

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LaElvis
Posted Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:55:25 pm CDT

Etanhol...
Is it just me or do the rest of you realize that we no longer live in a free country......Obama is the dictator and we are nobody....unless we rise up and take back our country....this site is great but quit being pussies.....take back your country or be slaves to the NWO/BILDERBERG A**HOLES WHO RUN THE WORLD.....

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Made To GO
Posted Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:44:06 pm CDT

NO GO
Chevron WILL NOT, I repeat, WILL NOT allow me or any dealer to sell conventional IF ethanol is available, it has nothing to do with jobbers or retailers.

No Louisiana law is going to change this. Mark my word. The problem is the stupid tree huggers, the weak politicians. As long as those breath, this is the way it will be.

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MallardZ
Posted Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:53:18 pm CDT

Eddie Lambert
I spoke with him this evening. He is the state representative of Ascension parish. He is going to look further on Wednes day. He is an outdoorsman like all of us here and concerned about the ethanol effects on his boats as many of us are.

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MarshManiac
Posted Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:10:15 pm CDT

.
Pete, I think LOMA will fight it tooth and nail because it forces an extra expense on the members. Don't underestimate them, they have serious stroke. It was them who killed the generator bill.

And yes, all refineries do MAKE conventional gasoline but not all SELL conventional gasoline. They have to make it to mix it.

Motiva does not sell conventional
Exxon-BR does not sell conventional
Murphy does not sell conventional

Lake Charles refineries will soon stop selling conventional

Word has it that around late 2011 no one will sell conventional any more.

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MarshManiac
Posted Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:58:02 pm CDT

.
I work with both retail and bulk operations, distribution, safety, environmental...sort of a hybrid-type position. I've worked in all areas of fuel distribution except for driver.

I looked at the stats for our stores and retail customers even though the sales of grades vary from area to area - it looks like roughly 75/10/15 overall. Branded stores tend to sell more mid/premium.

All grades are E-10.

Also, outboards aren't the only things that are suffering. I've got friends that own businesses who have to constantly rebuild the carbs on welding machines, light plants, forklifts, etc. That stuff degunks the tanks and clogs up the jets and filters really quick.

I agree that Pete doing something is better than sitting back but I think he is aiming at the wrong target - the retailers. Most retailers are small operations and don't make much on gas.

Don't think that ANY store makes a lot on fuel. The only ones are probably the huge truck stops that pump enough diesel per day to bloat a battleship.

I use the example of a baseball game...you never know what pitch they are going to throw - you buy a load of gas and the next day it bottoms out and you are stuck with expensive fuel - the store across the street buys today and drops his price and you can barely cover your cost. There are no home runs, only bunts and base hits.

It would make more sense to kill the tax break for blended fuels...it at least puts the folks still selling conventional in a more competitive position.

However, when you see entire refineries stop selling conventional gas, it does not bode well. They invest millions to blend it in-house and wouldn't put that kind of money into it if they had no future requirement.

As far as being held hostage - we all are...in small-ball world, we all have to balance what we pay and what we charge. Many factors go into pricing, we buy wholesale and have to factor in that cost and the cost to move it...we call this the base ppg. We average the base ppg with the ppg in the tank already and have a set ppg. Take the set ppg and weigh in factors such as how much you HAVE to make to stay afloat and make a few pennies, competition and upcoming trends and set your price. Some stores may change price 2-3 times a day depending on the competition, some wait until they get their next load. It isn't an exact science but it works.

The villian isn't the retailer, distributor or even the refinery - the E-10 evil lies in Washington where it is promoted and mandated.

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Cajun-Pete
Posted Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:32:19 pm CDT

Above Ground Gas Tanks? Who would want to pay for that option?

Chris37 and Marshmainiac, what do you think the response from the gas station dealers and the Louisiana Oil Marketers and Convenience Store Association would be if we worded the bill that all gas stations that did not have a mid-grade tank would have to install an above ground tank and pump for ethanol free gas? I'm sure that would cost them $thousands and they'd scream and you know it.

And, I again repeat, it's not about availability. All refineries continue to make ethanol free gasoline. The EPA DOES NOT require refineries to produce 100% of their gas as ethanol gas. Certain cities which are in an EPA air "non attainment area (poor air quality and high ozone levels)" are required to sell ethanol gas. They did the same when the oxygenate was MTBE before ethanol. To my knowledge, the only city in Louisiana that is in an EPA non attainment air quality area is Baton Rouge, due to Exxon/Mobile operations.

If there was an easy way to get the Washington bureaucrats to repeal the ethanol gas EPA regulation, I'd push for that. But, I think everyone knows full that won't happen in our lifetime. Instead, they want to push "Cap and Trade (or Tax and Tax)" on us. That would only make matters worse and hike gas prices even higher. Talk about will kill US industry if that passes........US factories would close shop and move their plants to Mexico and other south American countries that don't have such environmental regulations.

I know no one in business wants more government intervention in their business. I understand and support that premise. But, how do we assure ethanol free gas availability if gas station retailers don't voluntarily sell it??? They can get it, they just cave in to distributors pressure for their tax credit.

Just what do we do if EPA increases the ethanol content to 15%???

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bigbuckhunter
Posted Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:31:09 pm CDT

ethanol free gas
government sucks!!!!!so does ethanol gas as well as ultra low sulfer diesel!!!!!!!!if you want 100% gas they sell it in laplace at conoco station on the corner of airline and hemlock.what we need is a revolution to get things straight!

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chris31
Posted Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:01:30 pm CDT

Now you are talking hydra-sport
Hydra, you have hit it right on the head, you are saying the same thing I am, go vote and work on the ethanol incentives. Voters got the senators in who created the problem and voter can get them out. If boaters create a need for reel gas near the point of use, someone will start selling it and I will start buying it, even if it cost more. I think the key is to make the need known to the stations, in the end the market will decide, not lawmakers...

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Hydra-Sports
Posted Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:23:11 pm CDT

Fight Back!
Cajun-Pete is at least taking action to help put forth a possible solution. Much better than sitting back, watching the damage E-10 is doing to the boating industry and our wallets. MarshMainiac appears to have some knowledge of the retail gasoline industry. Chris31 doesn't want the government to get involved. However, the guys buying gas at Race Track are buying there because it is cheap. It doesn't matter if it is ethanol or not... just cheap. We boaters want to protect our engines from damage; a few pennies more a gallon is well worth the protection. MarshMainiac, what percentage of gas sold at the average station is regular grade, mid grade, and premium grade. I have trouble believing that the mid grade and premium grades amount for a large quantity of sales. Here's my though. Let stations close to recreation areas or with heavy boat owner traffic drop the mid or premium grade. I feel certain that the sales would be equal to or greater than those of the mid grade or premium. Keep in mind, many drivers of cars and trucks would like to purchase the conventional unleaded also. My other question is, is mid octane and premium octane also E-10 gas? MarshMainiac, I don't know what part of the fuel industry you are employed in, but, too often these guys hold us hostage. Take the current spike in prices... the reason is?? Excessive Profit!! U.S. drivers cut back on the amount of gas purchased, so these guys raise the price to keep the profits high. Chirs31, I detest government intervention and / or control. But their intervention is what has caused this problem, how about we try just once to get them to correct the problem they have created. Don't think you can do it, hell yes, it’s called VOTING. If the government dropped the rebates paid to the refineries, you think they would still be producing only E-10... Maybe not. There is a problem, Cajun-Pete's suggested solution may not be the best solution, but, at least he is trying. So how about an idea you think is better? Or, do you think it is better to sit back and say "oh well". I know I am tired of the problems and cost I am now incurring because of E-10 gas.

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Made To GO
Posted Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:24:08 am CDT

Yep
Would be nice to sell conventional again.

Im for conventional, against being told what to do.


Oh and Jindal and the generator issue...LOL...

Cheers.

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abeastandasavage
Posted Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:40:27 pm CDT

above ground tanks?
my opinion is, i really don't care if 100% gas comes from above ground tanks or below ground tanks!!! i don't have a problem with using e10 gas in my vechicles, but we need 100% gas for all other types of gasoline engines and i don't care where it comes from, the air tanks, the ground tanks, lets just get it!!!! if not we are jacked!!!!!!!!!

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chris31
Posted Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:14:06 pm CDT

Why do I care?
Pete , I live in Jonesboro, but I go to Happy Jack to fish many times a year, I also take my boat, I spend a lot of money in La. for pleasure, I am also a small business owner who has has the government dictate what products I have to sell, most of them illfated, that is why I care. You have not got my point yet. Why can't the stations sell Ethanol gas as per there dealers wish, and have a small above ground tank that sell 100 % gas at a higher rate and no new law, looks like everyone would win and would be cheap on the stations, like the Marsh Man. says.

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MarshManiac
Posted Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:23:49 pm CST

.
Pete, the stations that are already pumping E-10 have already spent thousands refitting their tanks...moving back to conventional would require small expense, yes...mostly for filters as they take different kinds. But what do you tell them when they cannot get conventional any more and have to sell blended fuels only? They already have the physical changes but who will pay for them to get the tank cleaned again? Who is going to pay for the new probe they have to install? Will you? Will the government?

I relatively small above-ground tank can be leased inexpensively with pump and meter...it would not be a dispenser like the other pumps but they'd still have the real gas.

Hydra, I understand the position and in my heart I support it...I don't like using E-10 in my truck or sled but it is a fact that it is hear and there is nothing we can do about it.

I agree that our boating lives would be a lot easier if we had only non-blended fuel...I know mine would!

SOME retailers have a choice of what type of fuel to buy...if a station is branded (Shell, Exxon, Chevron, etc) they can only buy the branded brew and it is not available in all areas...for instance, by summer, all Shell stations in the southern part of the state can only sell E-10 because the only refineries that brew shell gas will sell only E-10. In the NO and BR areas, the Shell stations have to sell E-10 because that is all they can get.

Unbranded stations can buy from wherever they have an account. An example, I used to work for a company that sold unbranded gas and they had an account at Placid Refinery in Port Allen. With that account, we could get fuel anywhere that placid had an "allocation" and I bought fuel from Placid refinery, Exxon in BR, Exxon in chalmette and Motiva in Convent...Only Placid and Exxon Chalmette had conventional gas...I bought from Exxon BR and Motiva too but they only have E-10...it was either the retailer who determined which fuel I bought or, if he didn't care I bought it from whoever made the most sense logistically.

A lot of stations buy based on which fuel is cheaper...when you see the price under 2.40 a gallon, generally conventional is cheaper, above that, E-10 costs less. I'm telling ya, when prices fell under that 2.40 range, the gas in those tanks was around 5% ethanol....they mixed both types of fuel.

So, it is complicated as to whether a station HAS to sell only E-10 or can have conventional. To some it is an option, an economic decision, to others it is not an option. Most chains will sell E-10 only because of the volume and they made the changes all at once. A lot of smaller stores hung in there and are still hanging on pushing the changover costs back until they have to spend.

A few years ago I worked for RaceTrac, they moved to E-10 very early in the game...it was economics...they price their gas low...very low. They don't really want to sell gas, that isn't their game. Their game is to get you in there, pump a little gas and get you INSIDE to get that coke, chips, smokes, sammich where the REAL money is.

Until everyone has to sell E-10 they'll be no black and white answer.

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Cajun-Pete
Posted Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:15:36 pm CST

The Pressure to sell ethanol gas is real

Chris, I've had at least 6 e-mails in the past 3 months from dealers who currently selling ethanol free gas (who are on our ethanol free gas station list) telling me they don't know how long they can hold out because they're getting pressure from their distributors to convert to ethanol gas. Now why would distributors pressure them to sell ethanol gas??? Why?

Then, after you answer that, why do you sell ethanol gas instead of ethanol free gas? I'm sure readers would like to hear your answer........

By the way Chris, I see from our bio that you list your residence as Jonesboro, Arkansas. If that is true, why do you care about what we do in Louisiana??

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chris31
Posted Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:19:56 pm CST

you make no sense Pete ?
Pete, why do you think that the "refiners and dealers " coerced stations into selling ethanol with money but 300,000 plus La. boaters can't ? If I had a market of boaters wanting to buy ethanol free gas , and I could get it, I would buy a above ground tank in a minute.

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Cajun-Pete
Posted Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:51:43 pm CST

Do you Really Believe?
C'on guys.......if you really believe any station will voluntarily spend the money to buy and install an above ground tank and pump to supply ethanol free gas, I'd ask "what are you smoking"? The stations that currently have 3 tanks will not incur any added costs to switch their 89 octane mid-grade tank to ethanol free regular gas and you know it.

Bottom line, if stations don't voluntarily offer it, we'll try to make them supply it. The chances of changing Washington's position on ethanol gas is a joke! It won't happen, and if anything, it will get worse. Outboard motor manufacturers support this effort. EPA itself doesn't even know if existing automobiles will run without problems on 15% ethanol gas. The marine industry say their engines WILL NOT. I don't know if we can get this passed into law, but I ask everyone, do you have a better solution to the problem? If so, lets hear it.......

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Cajun-Pete
Posted Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:09:46 pm CST

Here's the Answer to your question Hydrosport
Hydrosport, the EPA requires refiners to sell ethanol gas per EPA Regulations passed by former President George W. Bush. Each year, they issue a letter to Refineries outlining how much ethanol gas they must sell as a percentage of their total gasoline sales. In 2009, refineries had to sell 10.21% of their total gasoline sales as ethanol gas. For 2010, it went down to 8.75%. Stations are being "coerced" by dealers and refineries to sell ethanol gas for the TAX CREDIT they get.....it's all about MONEY.

Regarding the potential of us seeing 15% ethanol fuel in the near future, the attached link will show you a letter the EPA sent Growth Energy, the lobby organization for the ethanol manufacturing plants on their request to increase the ethanol content from the current max of 10% (except E-85 for Flex vehicles) to 15%. Read the letter carefully. It sure reads to me like the EPA will likely approve the request to increase it to 15%. If this happens, and boaters cannot find a source of ethanol free gas, it will CRIPPLE and SHUTDOWN the marine industry in Louisiana and the Country.

EPA Letter: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/lettertogrowthenergy11-30-09.pdf

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Hydra-Sports
Posted Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:51:17 pm CST

Question for MarshMainiac
I and I believe most drivers / boaters do not know what the present regulations are. Are service stations required to sell E-10 gasoline, or, is it an option. Is conventional unleaded gas available to the retailer, or, can he only purchase the E-10 gas. I do not know why the majority of stations switched to E-10. Perhaps if we knew the answer we as the buyer may have a better understanding of the situation

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Hydra-Sports
Posted Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:15:09 pm CST

MarshMainiac
MarshMainiac, I appreciate your information and position. However, please try to appreciate ours. Not all of us can run out and buy the new and improved outboards. With the price of a 150hp at 15K+, it is a large investment for the average fisherman and hunter. However, if given the choice, and the retailers would provide non-ethanol fuel it would make our lives easier. If the retailer is given the choice as to which to provide, or able to provide both, and not forced to provide only one type of fuel it may just open the non-ethanol market up. I also followed the "new" rules regarding the E-10 fuel. Sill lost a cylinder and am having the engine rebuilt. To be honest, I would run non-ethanol in my truck. E-10 has a loss of octane, and does not give as good gas mileage as non-ethanol does. One other thing, I purchased an ethanol test kit, and to be honest, many of the stations I have purchased gas from tested higher than 10%. Final question, why is gas going up in price so fast this time of year. Are the producers trying to get the price up in time for summer so they can inflate their profits once again? And Chris31, I don't think more government intervention is good. Fact is, if the government hadn't intervened then we would not have the problem we have now.

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chris31
Posted Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:24:48 pm CST

breath of fresh air
Thank you Marsh Maniac for the breath of fresh air from an insider on this issue like me who will be directly affected by Pete and the others on this site that think more government intervention will make this issue better. If Pete and his followers on this site spent as much time calling the gas stations demanding they vol. sale 100% gas as they do spending time on trying to get another law passed that has no chance at all, I feel you would see small above ground tanks pop up where the demand is needed, it might cost a few cents a gallon more but most of us would pay it and everyone would be happy. As I said in the posts below, it is easier to jump on the small stations then try to fix the real problem of govt. sub. ethanol.Thanks for my 2 cents

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MarshManiac
Posted Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:24:33 am CST

tanks
Pete, all modern stations now have only 2 tanks for gas thanks to the blenders in the system.

At one time it was cheaper for them to install a 3rd tank and buy the brewed 89 octane but all the new or retrofitted stations have blenders.

If I owned a station where the boat traffic was heavy, I'd get a fireguard above-ground tank and stock conventional in it...

I monitor our station in Gueydan and it has conventional gas but pretty soon, it will either have to go unbranded or pump E-10.

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MarshManiac
Posted Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:19:49 am CST

more stuff
Nebraska does it voluntarily, Louisiana does not

I don't know why, I didn't create the situation...I just know how it is.

The guys way up the food chain make those decisions, I just send the juice to the tanks.

My answer to the outboard guys is to fix it so the engines can run on 10%, 15% and whatever they throw at us in the future. it is inevitable, nothing can stop this. They will do what they have to do to sell outboards and we will pay more for them.

I don't like E-10 any more than the next dude, I have a 1996 Merc that has run fine so far on E-10 but I follow the new rules and am very careful...but still, it scares the crap outta me what that stuff can do and has done to people.

whenever they are able to get ethanol from bagass and other waste products it'll probably go to a higher blend because the supply will be there and be cheaper.

Pretty soon, the only thing that will be available is E-10 or worse. Pure gas will be going the way of the dinosaurs and the edsel.

Ask the farmers and owners of diesel engines. When they introduced ULSD, they said it wouldn't do any damage but it did....it did lots. Many have to add conditioners to keep their older engines running. More will have to do that because the 500ppm diesel, used for offroad and marine engines is going away next year. It is a progressive cycle.

You can toss all the numbers of registered boats in the state all you want, it still pales in comparison to the number of wheeled vehicles on the road and for 99% of the stations out there, boat gas is just a drop in the bucket.

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Cajun-Pete
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:35:43 pm CST

What is your solution to the problem Marshmaniac?
So, Marshmaniac, what is your answer for the marine industry if EPA approves 15% ethanol gas? The marine industry needs ethanol free gas. If EPA doesn't care about the marine industry, who will if we don't try to protect ourselves?

We need action, not ramblings..........Louisiana has 319,124 registered boats at the end of 2009. The economic impact of the marine industry in Louisiana is BILLIONS of dollars. Do you just ignore it??? If Nebraska can voluntarily give consumers a choice of ethanol or non ethanol regular gas, then why don't you??

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Cajun-Pete
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:28:43 pm CST

Clarification on Mid-Grade Gasoline

"Corksucker", I recognize that some stations do not have an 89 octane tank. But, most Refinery gasoline distribution terminals blend the 89 octane from regular and premium AT THE TERMINAL and deliver it to stations that do have an 89 octane tank. I know that for a fact as I used to provide environmental technical support for the gasoline distribution terminals for a major oil company during my work career.

Most large gas station have 3 gas tanks - a regular, a mid-grade and a premium. Those that do not have a mid-grade tank are mostly the smaller, independent stations.

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MarshManiac
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:21:56 pm CST

Pete
"I fail to understand how requiring gas stations to take their 89 octane tank and switch it to regular non ethanol gas hurts the station? Can anyone explain that to me?"

Because 99% of customers of 99% stations don't sell gas to boaters, they sell to folks in cars...and 99% of folks with cars don't care about what they put in their tank. It is all about cheaper pricing. And a good number of people burn 89 octane in their vehicles. A business must cater to his customer base, not a few, scattered customers.

Station owners have paid thousands of $$ to clean and refit tanks, lines, probes and monitors to allow them to sell the fuel they, by contract, are obligated to sell. It'd cost them more money to provide a more expensive product that would just sit in the tank and cost them more money.

Plus you are telling them to sell a product that they most likely, by contract, cannot sell.

My branded stations cannot sell an off-brand product or I could lose that branding. And they do check!

...and remember the generator brew-haha after Gustav?

Again, you efforts to notify others of the availability of conventional gas and the dangers of E10 are admirable. However, when you venture out into political and big business territory, sorry but you are wasting your time...these people don't give a crap about us.

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corksucker
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:49:24 pm CST

never gonna happen
medium grade full with minimum octane of 89 is a blend of regular and premium fuel. It is not made seperately, as i have worked at service station many years and asked this question of the delivery plant. The price difference from different name brand station is the additives in the fuel. The federally subsidised ethanol needs to have the subsidy removed to reflect the actual cost of making the stuff.Once again I believe less government involvement would benifit the most and not new legislation that would garantee higher cost.

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abeastandasavage
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:41:26 pm CST

pete?
pete? some people will never understand what you are saying, even though it hits them in the head like a ton of bricks!! they think we, the little people control the government and the government doesn't control us and make us do what they want?? some people , like a bunch of people, better wake up and soon, or it will be too late and it's getting really close!!! if they don't care about themselves, they sure certainly should care about their children and grandchildren!!!

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a.c.man
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:33:33 pm CST

ethanol
Thanks Pete for being a man of action

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Hydra-Sports
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:29:58 pm CST

Thank You!!
Cajun Pete, Thank You. You have taken the initiative to help correct a major problem we are facing; an expensive problem. Right now I have an outboard engine being rebuilt as a direct result of ethanol, and a $3,000 plus bill to pay. You are correct; no service station is required to sell only ethanol fuel. I suspect that the truth is that mid range octane, and high octane are a small part of their sales, and by selling regular grade, non ethanol fuel, would INCREASE their sales. I for one will contact my State Legislature members, and those members of the Legislature that I personally know, to ask them to support this bill. Again, thank you for your efforts.

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Cajun-Pete
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:50:12 pm CST

Why Does This Proposal Hurt Gas Stations?

Guys, I don't understand why some of you say that the proposed bill to require gas stations to carry non ethanol regular is another burden on gas stations? Isn't the Federal Government's law that requires the sale of ethanol gas government regulation just that? I can assure you that if we succeed in getting this bill passed, gas station WILL be able to get non ethanol gas! Refineries are in the business of making gasoline to sell to customers to make a profit. As long as they sell the minimum required amount of ethanol gas called for by EPA, it doesn't matter to them. Sure, they will price non ethanol gas a little higher to offset their Government credit for ethanol gas. Like I said before, refineries still make the majority of their gas as non ethanol. Some cities that are in an EPA air non compliance area, like Baton Rouge, are required to sell ethanol gas. Before ethanol, is was MTBE. But this chemical did not hurt marine engines.

I fail to understand how requiring gas stations to take their 89 octane tank and switch it to regular non ethanol gas hurts the station? Can anyone explain that to me?

I spoke with the lobbyist for the National Marine Manufacturers Association today. This is the organization that represents all marine engine manufacturers. He spoke with them in Washington today, and he called me back to tell me that the WILL support our proposed legislation. They are also concerned that 15% ethanol will likely be approved and it will kill their business, as it will kill the fishing industry across the Country!

Regarding trying to get the Federal Congress/Senate in Washington to rescind the ethanol gasoline law, don't hold your breath! This was started by former President George Bush. The "Mo, Larry and Curly" administration we have in Washington now would NEVER approve rescinding it. Our best chance to save our fishing industry in Louisiana is what I am working on. All gas stations in Nebraska voluntarily offer their customers a choice of either regular gas with or without ethanol. Since our station in Louisiana won't do that on their own, we will try to see if we can make it a requirement. If anyone has a better solution to this problem, I'd like to hear it.

One thing is for SURE - if EPA mandates 15% ethanol gas, and we don't do anything to try to assure we can get ethanol free gas, you can park your boat and grow flowers in it because if you can't find ethanol free gas, you will have a big, very expensive anchor on the back of your boat.

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MarshManiac
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:46:18 pm CST

E10
Pete, I never said conventional gas was not available...I said some stations cannot buy it...

If you have Shell, you cannot get it because no one offers shell conventional gas for the stations to buy

Some brands and most unbrandeds can still get conventional but if buying it makes it uneconomical then they won't. You can add another 8-9 cents per gallon if it gets trucked from NO to BR....no one is going to buy that because they can't sell it.

The chalmette exxon does NOT blend E10 therefore the Nawlins exxon stations should carry real gas...unbrandeds in the new orleans area can also get plain gas without the exxon chemicals. If chalmette brews up other brands, say, like chevron, they can get real gas.

In BR is is just the opposite for the most part - if exxon brew is drawn from the exxon plant, it is E-10 but you can get exxon brew from Placid across the river - but the price you pay is a few cents higher...toss in the tax break and you have bought expensive fuel you will never sell.

If stations really, really want to sell conventional gasoline, they can get an above-ground tank and pump setup and sell it to every boater that rolls through...just be ready to pay a price for it.

The tax break is 4.5 cents, not 50 cents. At least it was earlier today when I bought a few truckloads.

The tax break has been in place for years and no one is going to pry it from the tax code. That'd be political suicide.

Also, no politician with any future would dare support a bill that requires THOUSANDS of businesses to spend THOUSANDS of dollars after they all just spent THOUSANDS of dollars to get set for E-10. Sure, a few will talk it up for the folks back home and make some headlines but it'd never pass. (remember the generator issue after the last set of hurricanes?)

Not being rude, just being real.

Don't fuss most of the stations, they are just trying to make a buck. Don't fuss the distributors, they are giving the stations what they want. Don't even fuss the refineries, they are doing what they have to do to increase profits - these are businesses, not charities and their job is to make money. If they couldn't sell that junk then they wouldn't sell it.

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abeastandasavage
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:51:11 pm CST

all i know is?
all i know is, ethanol sucks!! no-one should get tax credits for selling gas, that is bad for gasoline engines!!! someone should educate our lawmakers on the effects of ethanol fuel, like they care!! it all boils down to money in their pockets!! if i owned a gas station, i would only sell 100% gas!!! i would have a big sign saying, 100% gas sold here, no ethanol, talk about my business would pick up!! i would make more money selling 100% gas than i would make selling ethanol, even with the tax credits, guaranteed!!!! go emmette and pete!!!!!!

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chris31
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:07:42 pm CST

thanks for last word emmitt
The bottom line emmitt is you are lazy like most people. Instead of addressing the problem , i.e. the tax credit for ethanol, and the government, you would rather impose more restrictions on small service stations and impose mandates on what they sell because because they are easy targets and you think you can get this done quicker and avoid the hard work. Thanks for the last word.

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emmett galloway
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:22:40 pm CST

chris31
I think you are naive about the "free country" that you think you live in. What do you not understand about government mandates of ethanol use in place today. Go ask any service station owner about the number of laws/regulations that they are affected by. Congratulations on your willingness to stick with your short sighted position and good luck on finding your 100% gasoline. You are welcome to have the last word on our mind numbing conversation.

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chris31
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:23:11 pm CST

your wrong again
Emmitt, your right that having 100% gas is a good thing, your wrong if you think that it is the governments place to order gas stations to sell a product that they may or may not want to sell. This ain't Russia brother, thats what smells.

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emmett galloway
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:59:40 pm CST

chris31
It is not wrong to make 100% gasoline more available to a needy consumer. Your solution results in more of the status quo which has a real bad smell.

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chris31
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:47:00 pm CST

two wrongs don't make a right
I am sorry emmett, two wrongs don't make a right. Stick with the problem of ethanol tax credit not a band aid approach of regulating private stations right to do business. As a elected offical, I can tell you the proposed change by Pete, does not have a chance, the gov. only says he would sign because he knows that the state leg. won't approve it. Would hurt two many small businesses.

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emmett galloway
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:34:23 pm CST

ethanol legislation problems
chris31:

I am with you on removing the law on ethanol mandates and subsidies. The reality of the current congress and presidency results in a low possibility of getting them to reverse a law that they brought about and still believe in.

Until the federal ethanol law can be reversed Pete's proposed law deals with today's problems created by these laws. When and if the federal ethanol law is reversed, the state law proposed by Pete can also be reversed. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

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Copperhead_23
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:04:15 am CST

chris31
That is exactly what I have been trying to say. Passing laws to regulate other laws is what has gotten this country in the mess we are in today.

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chris31
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:49:31 am CST

right message wrong blame
The message here is that we want to buy 100% gas. Itstead of trying to pass a law requiring the station owner to have to sell a product they may or may not want to sell, which is unamerican to start with. Start contacting the lawmakers to end the ethanol tax credit that corn producing states enacted. We don't need a new big brother law, just reform of the tax credit law. You can't fix a bad law with more regulation and more new laws, spend your time with your senators to fix the real problem, the TAX CREDIT !!!

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papa-p
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:53:42 am CST

6500
Downshift, You may want to refigure your math. I think you have to many 0s. LOl

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Copperhead_23
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:51:48 am CST

Stats
Let me just say I did not research the numbers I used in my previous comment about the tax incentives. I just used the numbers from Pete's post, so do not hold me to these figures.

However, I do want to again say that I do not believe the government should be able to tell business owners what products they can or can not sell, but the government also should not influence the suppliers of these business owners to only sell one type of product or even a certain percentage of a product.

Marshmaniac, you say most stations CANNOT get pure gasoline and that is why they do not sell it, but the government (tax incentives to the suppliers) is the reason why they CANNOT get the pure gasoline.

Again, as a small business owner myself, I am with you on the no government control on the types of products/services we are allowed to offer. But the big picture here is the fact that they are already indirectly controlling it.

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DownshiftAndFloorIt
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:26:03 am CST

hmm...
Did I correctly read some of these comments about refineries getting a 50 cent/gallon tax credit PER GALLON of E10 sold? I'm not going to dig around and find the numbers, but I know I burn roughly 25 gallons of gas a week in my truck. Thats 1300 gallons of fuel a year that exxon moves through my truck alone, which is $6500 a year in tax credit for exxon just from my truck if I run E10 the entire year. Am I understanding this correctly???

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emmett galloway
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:56:52 am CST

Unfree Market
I am favor of very little government intervention and little government. I agree with Pete's attempt to require stations to sell 100% gasoline because the government has mandated and subsidized, using our money, the use of ethanol in gasoline and has therefore made 100% gasoline hard to find. In some cities like Baton Rouge it is almost impossible to find 100% gasoline. I do not want to use ethanol gas in my boat or in my autos and surely there are a number of other folks who are of the same mind. We need readily available 100% gasoline. Remove government intervention on behalf of ethanol and this problem would not exist.

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Cajun-Pete
Posted Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:21:17 am CST

Louisiana Refineries ARE Producing Ethanol Free Gas

MarshManiac, dealers CAN get ethanol free gas. Louisiana Refineries are producing and selling ethanol free gas every day. EPA DOES NOT require refineries to produce 100% of their gas as ethanol gas. There is not anywhere near enough ethanol produced in the US today to put 10% ethanol is all gasoline sold in the US. The EPA Regulation does NOT have in it's future plans currently, to reach a point of 100% ethanol gas. Read the EPA regulation......One of my neighbors owns a Conoco station. He refuses to sell ethanol gas. He gets his ethanol free gas from Marathon Refinery in Garyville. He also buys some from Murphy Oil Refinery in Chalmette. Most of the Exxon station around the New Orleans Metropolitan area sell ethanol free gas. They get it from the Exxon/Mobil refinery in Chalmette. It's the distributors who are "conning" the dealers for their almighty "cut" of the ethanol kickback. But, there are also many cities with large fishing activity that has NO ethanol free gas station. It's politics and money, nothing more.

What will be your position if the EPA approves going to 15% ethanol gas later this year? They have indicated they could care less about the marine industry. I'm curious..........what will you say then?

In conclusion, it's not about availability, it's about wanting to get the kickback. The ethanol free gas is available at all refineries. Shell sells ONLY ethanol gasoline in Louisiana. They make ethanol free gas and pipeline it through the Colonial pipeline system to the Northeast states.....but, they still make it. If our proposed bill would pass into law, they would be required to supply their stations with ethanol free gas again.

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MarshManiac
Posted Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:37:02 pm CST

tax
the ethanol tax break is 4.5 cents and most refineries take a penny+ back...sell it at a penny+ over conventional gas when they are at the break-even point, around 2.55 a gallon at the pump

We don't pay 50 cents in tax per gallon (yet)

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MarshManiac
Posted Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:33:59 pm CST

law
Let me say again that the intent behind this proposed law is very good however---------

Like the others said, you cannot tell a business owner which products he can or cannot sell within reason. If we let them do this then government will get more and more into our business. I own a small business that is labor only, I don't sell a product and if the government told me what services I could or could not provide they would either just be creating a criminal or put me out of business.

I also work with over 20 stations and there is NO WAY they are going to change back after spending the money they did to prep for ethanol. LOMA will file a suit blocking this action in 1.5 seconds.

The other thing is that many stations CANNOT get conventional gasoline. They CANNOT get it, plain and simple.
Most sell enthanol for the tax break, yes (check your figures guys, I think your number are way off) but MOST branded stations are bound by contract to buy a specific brand of fuel and most branded fuels in this area are blended.

Get it through your heads, folks, no one is going to stop this train...the feds have been bought off. Enjoy the convention gas while you can get it...around September 2011 it should go bye-bye for all.

Made To Go and Bob Lee, did yall get to the UST Training at DEQ yet?

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Copperhead_23
Posted Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:32:00 pm CST

Funny
I am not completely educated on this issue, but from what I have read I am a little confused.

So let me get this strait. The government regulates the MINIMUM amount of ethanol gas the refineries produce but they do not have to produce only ethanol gas. HOWEVER, the government does offer a fifty cent per gallon tax credit for producing it and a tax credit to the gas station for selling it. As a business man myself, deciding to produce/sell ethanol over non-ethanol would be an easy choice for me.

It sounds to me that the government is already controlling this situation, but using the old slide of hand trick they are so good at.

Believe me, I am all about a smaller government and less government regulation, but people need to understand how the government ALWAYS already has their hands in everything we do.

Having said all of this, how do we approach this situation? More government control or less "incentives"? Me, I'm all about taking the incentives away and truely letting the market determine what should be sold.

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chris31
Posted Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:25:04 pm CST

Pete and Beast
As an elected offical, I can tell you both that you are off base with this line of logic on gas. Mandates on what type off gas a business should sell by the government are wrong. The market will dictate what the consumer wants. Should they also pass a no trans or mod fat law in La. fast food businesses because it might be in the best interest of La. residents, after all these businesses are making big bucks on cheap inexpensive food as opposed to more healthy produces. I do agree with the lable on the pumps, but that should be the end of it........ Less Government more individual.....

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phishless
Posted Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:36:05 pm CST

Mid grade gass
So what happens to all the folks that use mid-grade gasolene?

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abeastandasavage
Posted Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:39:04 pm CST

chris31
chris31, right now its up to the owner what they sell, 10% ethanol or 100% gas, right, great!! they are talking about going to 15% ethanol fuel, which will kill, the outboard motor industry and many other things also!!! do you think the gas station owners will be able to tell the government, NO, i will not sell 15% ethanol fuel??? they will sell it or go out of business!!!!! they will have no choice, sell it or starve, like the government cares about you and your family and you're outboard motor!! they don't want you fishing anyway!! people better wake up quick, but what can we do about it anyway, maybe just try, for whatever good it would do anyway!!!

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Cajun-Pete
Posted Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:42:10 pm CST

Why Gas Stations Choose to Sell Ethanol Gas

Guys, I have the document from the EPA advising refineries how much ethanol gas they must sell each year. It's on the EPA's web site on the internet. In 2009, it was 10.21% of their total gasoline sales. This year it dropped to 8.75%. So, if Exxon say, sells 50 million gallons of gasoline total in 2010, ONLY 8.75% of it has to be ethanol gas (or Renewal Fuel as they refer to it). Refineries DO NOT HAVE TO SELL ALL THEIR GAS AS ETHANOL GAS! They, and distributors push ethanol gas because, you might guess, of $$$. I am told that refineries get a 50 cents/gallon tax credit on ethanol gas. The gas station gets 5 cents/gallon tax credit. So, the refineries push it for $$ and so do the distributors and gas stations. Distributors get their cut also. And, guess who pays for that? YOU AND I, THE TAXPAYERS!

All gas stations in Nebraska offer consumers either regular with or without ethanol. I saw this myself for the 2 weeks last June when a friend and I attended the College World Series in Omaha. We refueled my friend's car twice and saw this. We then checked about 6 other stations around Omaha and all did the same. They gave you a choice. The non ethanol regular gas was 3.9 cents/gallon higher than the ethanol regular. I spoke with the Nebraska Commissioner of Agriculture a month ago and asked him if this was a Nebraska law. He told me it was not law, but most gas station in Nebraska did it and they encouraged it. So, if Nebraska can do this, why can't Louisiana?

If we can get this bill I am proposing passed into law, the Governor assured me he would sign it. I met with him at a Chamber of Commerce Meeting in LaPlace last summer and discussed this with him.

If we don't get this passed, AND, if the EPA approves increasing the ethanol content of motor fuels to 15% as they have been petitioned to do by a lobbyist group (Growth Energy) for the ethanol plants, the entire marine industry in the US is DEAD if we can't find a source of ethanol free gas! Every outboard marine engine manufacturer warns users not to use gasoline with greater than 10% ethanol, or the engine will be severely damaged and the warranty voided!

When my Representative gets me a copy of the bill once introduced, with title and bill number, I will post it on Louisiana Sportsman. That is when all readers will be called into action to contact their State Representative to support the bill. If we can put enough pressure on them we may have a chance. I've already got people to testify with me before the Legislative Committee when it comes up. One Yamaha sales and service owner will testify and bring written testimonials from two of his friends who also operate marine repair shops, and, he will bring his Yamaha representative. I am waiting for the name and phone number of the Marine Industry lobbyist to get him on board also. Plus, I've spoken with the Executive Director of the "Louisiana Oil Marketers and Convenience Association" last week to give them a "heads up" and ask them to support us since it won't cost stations anything to conform. They will simply run their mid-grade 89 octane ethanol gas tank dry, they fill it with regular gas without ethanol. I've also asked that the pump be labeled "NON ETHANOL".

I'll keep everyone up to date as this progresses.

"Pete"

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chris31
Posted Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:33:25 pm CST

no more government intervention
Sorry beast, today they tell you that you have to sell something at your gas station, tommorrow they tell you when you can open the doors for business, then they put you out of business. I am sick of the belief that the government can run things from birth to death . I want the right to choose, if the station does not sell the gas I want, then I will go to another station, simple as that...

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abeastandasavage
Posted Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:12:42 pm CST

ethanol??
i know the government makes me and you, do what we don't like to do?? they are always telling us, what we can do and what we can't do!! it always was and it always will be!!!! they are already telling business, what they can do or can't do!! so whats the difference??? if the government tells business what to do this time, at least this will help and benefit a lot of people, like us, GO PETE!!!! oh, papa-p, nobama ain't my brother, by the way!!!!!

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papa-p
Posted Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:58:12 pm CST

Chris
I'm with you on this one Chris. Big brother is already tells us what to do, to damm much already. I can see making them label pumps to let you know if they have ethanol or not. But thats it.

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chris31
Posted Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:12:01 pm CST

Just wondering
Don't mean anything bad about this, but was wondering why anyone thinks they have the right to force a gas station to sell anything they don't want to. I think they would do what the market demands not and should not be forced to do anything. There are to many laws as is in this world.Thanks for letting me have my 2cents worth.

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